Mythological influences on Tolkien's world

[_ps]

(I have been unable to find an existing thread on this topic; please punch me if there is something I have overlooked.)

Partly because I might (in the far future) write my master thesis on this, partly because of personal interest, I want to catalog all the correspondences Tolkien's works have with preexisting mythological works. I could use the help of some Tolkien fans and mythology freaks in this, so I suggest we post whatever we know and has not yet been posted--and refute incorrect correspondences listed.
At the beginning of each list of correspondences, please state in capitals whether the correspondence is one of NARRATIVE or of NAMES; or yet another kind of correspondence.
Let me start the listing.
--

NAMES
The names of (nearly?) all the Dwarves who set out with Bilbo to steal the dragon's treasure (The Hobbit) have been plucked straight from the Prose Edda, the famous Old Norse work of mythology. I do not have my copy at hand here, so I cannot give a full list of which names occur in this work; but in the Edda, they are Dwarves as well. An interesting aspect is that one of the Dwarves in the listed bunch is called Gandalf, or Gandalfr, or something very close to it.

NARRATIVE
The notion of a dragon sitting on a hoarded treasure is common in the mythology of northwest Europe. The dragon in The Hobbit seems to be most directly derived from the Old English poem Beowulf (I shall not call it an epic since Tolkien did not consider it one): in that story, a dragon is upset because a cup has been stolen from among his treasures (Cf. Bilbo's 'thievery'), and therefore sets out to destroy Beowulf's town.
Similarly, the value attached to weapons and rings in Tolkien's works is a strong parallel with the situation in Anglo-Saxon England (and perhaps all of northwest Europe; details would be appreciated). Once again I do not have my sources with me here, so I cannot give references; but a king was considered good if he gave his retainers plenty of weapons and rings; the term 'ring-giver' for a popular king was therefore not uncommon (check Toronto University's Old English Corpus search engine on the corresponding Old English term).
Several details of the story of Turin 'Dread-helm' have come straight from the Karelian (Finnish) epic collection Kalevala; I cannot give exact details, but I do not need anyone to fill this in (although it would be good for the thread if someone did), because I mean to study the work for myself soon, granted that I will receive the Socrates/Erasmus grant to study at Helsinki University next year.

--

That's the idea. Bring it on!

[Isilia]

hi ps:)
i'm not the person to add the thoughts. but i want to thank you for starting this threat. i'm very interested in this topic, but i don't yet know any of the nortwest european epics and poems (not my cultural background).
so i'm looking forward to learning something new:)

[Mirdan]

i dunno if this can be of any help to you, but....

NAMES: how about the inspiration Tolkien got after reading the Old English religious poem Crist by Cynewulf? two lines stood out in that poem that may have inspired him to write about Eärendel the Mariner:

Eala Earendel engla beorhtast
ofer middangeard monnum sended.

i think it translates as:

Hail Earendel, brightest of angels,
Above Middle-earth sent unto men.

in the Prose Edda, isn't there also an Odysseus-like mariner called Orentil? the mariner whose toe froze off when crossing a frozen river, and the god Thor threw it up in the sky where it became a star? could Tolkien have combined these two figures, and the outcome was Eärendil the Mariner?

i'm not really sure about this, and really, ps......you're the expert in the subject!

[Brandir]

The whole story of Turin Turambar was derived from Germanic folk tales. I think it was the story of Sigfried and some sort of Ring Cycle.

[Hellga]

While Nibelunglied does have some moments reminiscent of Silmarillion, I wouldn't say it is very similar. There are many rings (you can even argue Tolkien took idea of making Ring an object of power from wedding rings :rolleyes: )

One of the things that influenced him a lot was Kalevala, the Finnish epos, which I haven't reread in a while (though I just read Kullervo's story, which is eerily similar to that of Turin), so I can't tell much about it :)

[_ps]

Thank you Mirdan, I did not know that the name Earendil appears in Cynewulf's writings. I must also look up the Orentil-story, because it seems that is from a part of the prose Edda that I have not read... Very helpful!

Hellga's and Brandir's accounts of Turin seem to be in conflict there--I knew about the link to Kalevala, and since Tolkien was familiar with Finnish (just look how much of it he injected into his Quenya language), this does seem to be his source. It is possible that some elements of the Kalevala and Germanic folk tales have a common source, that would be really interesting. Sigfrid--I'll do a library search on that name, then.

[Okassan]

An important thing to remember is what Tolkein said about his motivation Tolkein called his work "fairy stories. He bemoaned the fact that, compared to the rest of Europe, England did not have a rich fairy story history. England had the Arthurian legend but that was about it. It seems that by using elements of other European mythologies and fantasies he blended his work into the existing ancient stories. Even the writing style he used was an older one. By doing this the reader felt that he was reading something from long ago. I don't know if this was intentional or if it just worked out that way. He borrowed heavily from older legends and other languages. Then he mixed it all together, changed the languages into something related but different, and produced a masterpiece.

[Will Whitfoot]

A really good source for Tolkien's Old English and Old Norse sources is Tom Shippey's "JRR Tolkien: Author of the Century", which gives among other things the full quote from "Dvergatal" listing the dwarves' names.

It also gives the origin of "Arkenstone", which interests me because of my work on translating "The Hobbit" into Luxembourgish. For the record, OE eorc(l)anstan means "gem", and appears in "Beowulf". The "arken-" element apparently means "special, out of the ordinary". There is an Old High German instance of the cognate word ërkan or ërchan glossing Latin egregius. I translate "Arkenstone" as "Erchesteen" in Luxembourgish - a word which doesn't have any current meaning in Luxembourgish, but then "Arkenstone" doesn't mean anything to an English reader until he knows the context. ;)

Of course, you can also get an awful lot out of reading "Beowulf: the Monsters and the Critics", if you haven't already done so.:)

[_ps]

I have. But thanks for your helpful information--Tom Shippey's book must be my next stop :)

[_ps]

Hwæt!

Found one.

NARRATIVE_DETAIL

In the Tale of Túrin, that is, the prose "Turambar and the Foalókë" in The Book of Lost Tales part II, some domestic knowledge of dragons is presented. Among other things, it is said that: . . . whosoever might taste the heart of a dragon would know all tongues of Gods or Men, of birds or beasts, and his ears would catch whispers of the Valar or of Melko such as never had he heard before. (85)

Now, as Christopher Tolkien also notes in the commentary on the Tale, this is derived from the Old Norse prose Edda. In that work, a dragon's heart was eaten by 'Sigurd Fafnisbane, who was enabled to understand, to his own great profit, the speech of birds when he ate the heart of the dragon Fafnir, roasting it on a spit' (Tolkien 125).

The page numbers refer to the George Allen & Unwin 1984 edition of the book.

[_ps]

*ugh*

I know I am about the only one posting here, but at least my own private list keeps growing this way. . . Some of the great writers at Silmarillion 101 would do justice to a thread like this.

That thread is also where I found the following helpful information with regard of the link between Kullervo in Kalevala and Turin/Turambar, posted by Turumarth:

But it is a common misconception that Turin=Kullervo.

There is a connection, of course. But the character and career of Turin is a mixture of Kullervo and Sigurd and Oedipus. JRRT mentions that in one of his letters.


Very helpful indeed! Yesterday evening I finally got my hands on a metrical English translation of Kalevala--it would be wise if I waited with reading until I have survived my November exams. But I know myself better than that.

[Gwaewyn]

Greetings!

I just started a Celtic Civilization Course at UCD (University College Dublin), and though I don't know much about it yet, one thing I learned already is that there is a recurring theme in Early Irish (and Welsh, I think) Literature about a well or small stream that overflows "when insulted", the stream being associated with a goddess, and usually there is a female involved.

There is also a Tale about a Druid somewhere (I'll look it up next week) who dies, shape-shifts into an Eagle (of Lugh), flies away and is restored to life.

It also says that Early Irish authors delighted in digressing from their tales in order to give background information about the origins of place names and the Shaping of the World, "which may seem tedious to the modern reader." (Not if you're Tolkien-experienced, of course.)

Finally, all the Irish place names around here sound like they could easily fit into the Silmarillion. Things like "Fords of the Black Pool" or "Mounds of Macha." (I made this one up, I have to get my notes.)

If this goes in the right direction, I'll give look it up after my trip to Dingle over the weekend. :)

Slán go foill! :wave:

[Will Whitfoot]

Gwaewyn! There you are, buícheas le Día. :) (Don't expect much more Irish from me, though, it's a long time since I learnt it...)

So you're in Dublin now. I'm glad you found your way back here. I will be fascinated to see how many Celtic influences you manage to find in Tolkien. I suspect quite a few, however hard he tried to conceal them.

My own private theory is that he thought of the Celts (particularly the Welsh) as the Elves, the dark, mysterious people who had been in the country countless ages before (Anglo-Saxon) Men appeared and who still survived in places, though dwindling...

Btw, you wouldn't by any chance be stopping off in London on 21 December on your way back to Berlin for Christmas? There will be an awful lot of us watching TTT in Leicester Square...:D

Slán leat anois. (Hope that's right)

Will

[SwiftSnowmane]

Wow, Will, I had thought of that too.....the Elves being the Celts I mean. Or maybe its the Irish!:p I always thought that if England was Middle-earth, then perhaps Ireland was like the Undying Lands....and the Elves would be the Fair Folk who have all but disappeared now.....
Silly, I know, but I love imagining this kind of stuff...:) (or maybe I've just been reading too much into it again....:trout: )

I would love to learn Gaelic...its so pretty.:) All I know is this song:

Siuil, siuil, siuil a run,
Siuil go succir agus, shule go kewn,
Siuil go dheen durrus oggus aylig lume,
Iss guh day thoo avorneen slawn.


:rolleyes: :D

[Mirdan]

there is something mentioned about the British Isles and Ireland being the actual island of Tol Eressëa in one of the Lost Tales books, but i'd forgotten which one it was :(

[SwiftSnowmane]

Tis ok, Mirdan. At least you have READ those books. *:trout: herself again for not even finishing the Sil all the way*:rolleyes:

[Conor]

Swiftsnowmane - In Irish/Celtic mythology you have 'Tir na Nog' (the land of the eternal young). It lay of the west coast and was treacherous for mortal man to set foot on it.

It was inhabited by the 'Tuatha na Danan' which most scholars believe was the model for Tolkiens Elder. Anyway . . .

Slan Abhaile.

[Gwaewyn]

:) Hi Will! Dia duit, and well met again! :) (That's about the limit of my Irish, but I'm getting there.)

I actually find loads of stuff that sounds distinctly (or not so distinctly) familiar in the Irish tales. It's mostly just names and phrases, like the Yellow Book of Lecan, the Fading of the Síde-Folk, or Olwen. Then there are other similarities, for example two birds from the Otherworld, linked by a chain of gold (or bad crows from there, bringing evil), or the Small Folk. I think that's just like Tolkien, borrowing an expression for the sound and mystic air to it, but giving it a whole new meaning.

I wasn't planning on it, really, but if you can get me a ticket for London, I'll definitely make it happen! Tell me soon, though... (I expect they'll be gone, though, won't they?)

Slán go foill,
Gwaewyn

[Will Whitfoot]

Gwaewyn, if you want to find out about the London meet, go here (http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=70187#post70187) . The tickets cost 11 pounds. I don't think the final booking has been made yet.

Poppa is doing the booking, so contact him for more details. It would be great to see you there.:)

[Malene]

I haven`t read much mythological literature except Norse myth.
So I don`t know much about the Celtic/Irish influences you talk about.

There are a lot if Norse influences in LOTR,though.
I find that the whole Rohan/Rohirrim society have a kind of vikinglike feeling to it.Not the negative aspects of the viking culture,mind you.One notices that the Rohan men are described as blond,blue eyed,tall with helmets,armour,spears.
Now, I am sure a lot of people see this as Celtic influences,but to me it says viking(due to my cultural upbringing,of course), and I see these men as if they were standing right in front of me.

Elvish is clearly inspired by nordic languages the way it rolls off the tongue.(but so does celtic)
Some of the leading experts on Elvish are Norwegian languageprofessors, by the way.Funny,when I think of the fact that in the 70`s LOTR was a cult book at Norwegian universities,a subculture frowned upon by the faculties.

[Isilia]

i remeber that when i was reading a book of celtic legends, some aspects very much reminded me of tolkien. anyway i'm doing an art project on the celts because i can incorporate tolkien into it.

i found another influence on tolkien. it is the fragment of the lay of earendel in the lays of beleriand. tolkien was probably inspires by an old english poem called the widsith and its main character wada. it could have been an inspiration for both tuor ana earendil, and earendil's boat wingolt was probably derived from wada's boat guingelot. see the book for more details.

by the way. is someone here french or going to see ttt in paris?

[Elfëa]

Originally posted by Hellga
One of the things that influenced him a lot was Kalevala, the Finnish epos, which I haven't reread in a while (though I just read Kullervo's story, which is eerily similar to that of Turin), so I can't tell much about it :)

I'm native Finnish speaker, but unfortunately haven't read the whole Kalevala (:o) but when it comes to bits of Turin's tale and Kullervo's... :)

Their deaths and death words are similar. And depending where you put the limit of plagiarism... One could argue that Tolkien could actually (at least almost!) be charged for plagiarism here. :eek: :)

That Eala Earendil "extract", and words considering it can be found at least Humbrey Carpenter's "Tolkien: a biography" :) (was that correct - I'm bad with book names :o)

[_ps]

Concerning Irish influence and Eärendil,

One of the central motifs in older Irish mythology/literature is the 'rowing about,' in the form of immrama and echtrai. The works The Voyage of Bran and The Voyage of Máel Dúin concern themselves with groups of men rowing out from Ireland and encountering dozens of islands that are part of the Otherworld.

Comparing this with the story of Eärendil, there are both similarities and obvious differences. Although Eärendil must have found many islands in his career as a mariner, next to nothing is said about this: the only island I remember is mentioned is Tol Eresseä. There is a strong parallel with Valinor as representing the Otherworld. Another interesting detail is the fact that Eärendil, when seeking Valinor, is 'driven by repelling winds' that prevent him from arriving there (295). In The Voyage of Máel Dúin, the main character has a vendetta as the goal of his journey, and when he is sailing right under the fortress that contains the slayer of his father, winds blow him off.

Isilia: My Lays are lost :( I cannot therefore look up your reference.

Now. For other influences I have this week found:

% Melko's upsetting of the sun, after which it scourges parts of the earth, is a clear parallel to the classical story of Phaethon as found in Ovid's Metamorphoses: determined to ride his father Helius' chariot, that of the sun, for a day, Phaethon finds out he is not up to the task, and when he loses control the sun scourges parts of the earth (Ethiopia et al).

% Hengest and Horsa are in Tolkien's notes said to be the sons of Eriol/Ælfwine. According to Bede, these were the leaders of the Anglo-Saxon migration to England:


Duces fuisse perhibentur eorum primi duo fraters Hengist et Horsa, e quibus Horsa postea occisus in bello a Brettonibus hactenus in orientalibus Cantiae partibus monumentum habet suo nominee insigne. Erant autem filii Uictgisli, cuius pater Uitta, cuius pater Uecta, cuius pater Uoden, de cuius stripe multarum prouinciarum regium genus origenem duxit (Bede’s Historia Ecclesiastica Gentis Anglorum I.15 p. 31-2, qtd. in Colgrave and Mynors 50).

Their first leaders are said to have been two brothers, Hengist and Horsa. Horsa was afterwards killed in battle by the Britons, and in the eastern part of Kent there is still a monument bearing his name. They were the sons of Wihtgisl, son of Witta, son of Wecta, son of Woden, from whose stock the royal families of many kingdoms claimed their descent (Colgrave and Mynors 51).


The names are taken over in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle.

Finally, the following possibility suddenly came to me. The constant theme of migration to the west by the Elves may, or might, be a reference to what some claim was the "Anglo-Saxon migration myth." I realise I must be careful with this, because it is pure speculation: the first study into the migration myth, by my knowledge, was Howe's, in 1989. The year 2000 saw a second study, by Paul Battles. If Tolkien knew of a migration myth, he must have been very much ahead of his time.

In short, the 'myth' is supposed to have been a theme of migration pervading Anglo-Saxon culture (this is the part of the definition that Battles shares with Howe), as a result of the ancestral migration. Sailing to the west is, of course, exactly what the Germanic peoples did in the fifth century.

Even if Tolkien implemented this myth, it does not fit in with his early design that Luthany/Luthien be England, and Tol Eresseä (I believe it was) Ireland. Yet, this was an idea clearly discarded in most of the 'final' versions of Tolkien's tales.

[Will Whitfoot]

_ps, could you give full references for Howe and Battles? They sound interesting. Another interesting detail is the fact that Eärendil, when seeking Valinor, is 'driven by repelling winds' that prevent him from arriving there (295). In The Voyage of Máel Dúin, the main character has a vendetta as the goal of his journey, and when he is sailing right under the fortress that contains the slayer of his father, winds blow him off. Of course there is a RL basis for this. The reason it took Europeans so long to discover America was because the prevailing winds in the North Atlantic are westerly, so trans-Atlantic travel was only possible when Spanish and Portuguese mariners had gone far enough south along the African coast to pick up the easterly trade winds... So any RL traveller setting off from Britain or Ireland would find themselves constantly blown back to the east, particularly in early sailing vessels with poor windward capabilities.:)

[Isilia]

for those of you who don't have or cannot find the lays:)

in the lay of earendel one of the lines was 'But Wade of the Helsings wearyhearted'. an alternative for this was also added, 'Tur the earthborn was tried in battle'.
The former is taken from an early english poem Widsith. Not much is known about the original story of wade, but he survived in recollection. in general wade was portrayed as a mighty being, perhaphs originally a sea-giant, and there were also references to his boat. R.W. Chambers listed wade's common characteristics as follows
1, power over the sea
2, extraordinary strength - often typified by supernatural stature
3,the use of these powers to help those whom wade favours

and then there was wade's ship - guingelot. earendil's ship wingelot was most probably derived from guingelot, as earendil was tuor's son and wade was placed instead of tuor. there also may be a connection between earendil's sea voyages and the travels of wade.

i hope this makes sense to you and that it helps. i'm quite puzzled as to who was more inspired by wade (though i think unintentionally), earendil or tuor. tuor was associated with sea as a result of ulmo's appearence before him, etc. and he used the help given to him by ulmo to help others. plus he was also of greater stature than was usual. on the other side wade's voyages very much remind me of earendil's, and in order to get to valinor earendil needed some extra powers associated with the sea.

the migration myth is very interesting, i've never heard about it before. i'm learning so much from all of you.

[_ps]

The references concerning the migration myth are as follows.

Howe, Nicholas. Migration and Mythmaking in Anglo-Saxon England. New Haven: Yale UP, 1989.

Battles, Paul. "Genesis A and the Anglo-Saxon ‘migration myth.’" Anglo-Saxon England 29 (2000): 43-66.

I have recently finished a research paper on the topic, hence my acquaintance with the texts.

By the way, while reading the story of Eriol/Ælfwine, it strikes me that it is his tale, perhaps more than that of Eärendil, that resembles the Irish immrama/echtrai.

Some other notes concerning Lost Tales II that I just found here lying around...

% In the Tale of Tinuviel, Ulmo appears in the shape of an 'ancient mariner' (and I have a feeling it is the same that lives on the island where Ælfwine washes ashore). Though this may not be direct borrowing, it is certain that Tolkien knew how common the concept of gods pretending to be mortals was in Greek mythology--read a few books of the Odyssey.

% In the same tale, it is striking how Tolkien uses the narrative to explain why dogs chase cats. This is, of course, common in several mythological traditions; but it is quite obvious that in the later versions of his works, Tolkien has banned all such 'explanatory elements.'

[Conor]

Heres some information on the Tuatha De Danaan - you might see some of the similarities between them and Tolkiens Elder.

Tuatha Dé Danaan, in Irish mythology, the descendants of the great mother-goddess Dana. With her consort Bilé, Dana engendered a race of gods who have their counterparts in the Celtic mythologies of the British Isles and Gaul. According to legend, the Tuatha Dé Danaan were the ancestors of one of the early peoples of Ireland, who in their turn were vanquished by the Milesians from Spain and went underground to live as fairy inhabitants of the land. Dana's divine offspring include Goibhniu, the god of metalwork, Nuadhu Airgedlámh, the ancestral king, and Oghma, the god of writing and eloquence.

The gods of early Irish mythology reappear as heroes in the Lebor Gabala (Book of the Invasion of Ireland), a legendary account of the history of Ireland since the great flood described in the Bible. The collection, compiled by monks during the Middle Ages, merges elements of myth, folktale, and history with a Christian outlook. In the Lebor Gabala the Tuatha Dé Danaan arrive on clouds from the “northern islands of the world” as the fifth of a series of invading peoples. They carry with them four possessions: the Lia Fail (stone of destiny), which cries out when the true king touches it; the spear of the warrior-god Lug; the sword of their king, Nuadhu, which seeks out all enemies; and a cauldron. Led by Nuadhu, they overcame the Fir Bholg people at the First Battle of Magh Tuiredh, in which Nuadhu loses his right arm and is thus debarred from kingship. His place is taken by Bres, who is descended from the Fomorians, an earlier race of monstrous giants. After a period of tyranny, Bres is forced to yield to Nuadhu, for whom the healer Dian Cécht has made a silver arm. A struggle for power results in the Second Battle of Magh Tuiredh, in which the Tuatha forces are victorious but suffer such great losses as to leave them irrevocably weakened. In due course they are defeated by the Spanish Sons of Mil (or Milesians), who thereafter become the ruling race in Ireland. The Tuatha retreat to the Tir na n-Og, a distant land of eternal youth, and live on in subterranean palaces, where they maintain an invisible, fairy presence in Ireland.

[Gwaewyn]

So, this is what I’ve found in the Ulster Cycle so far:

If you read the "Tale of the Wooing of Étaín", the Síde might cross
your path: "All had fair, yellow hair and all were equally handsome, and they wore mantles of various hues…" Of Conare Már it is said that "the cloak he wore was like mist on the first day of summer: its colour and appearance changed from moment to moment, and each colour was lovelier than the one before. […] His hair was the colour of refined gold." And of Mider it is said that "the cloak was fastened with a old
brooch that reached to either shoulder. […] The man wore a scarlet tunic; golden yelow hair fell to his shoulders, and his eyes were sparkling grey."

In "The Destruction of Da Derga's Hostel", you might come across
"precious stones, and they would light up the night like the rays of the sun…", and the Dead that have an Oath to fulfill by three successive Kings; and if you read "The Wasting Sickness of Cú Chulaind", you will see "two birds coupled by a red-gold chain" (some say they were silver), or even an old man clad all in white, and "sweet as music was his voice; very loud and very slow was his speech […] A
man who can make peace with three fair words."

I will keep looking... :)

[Conor]

Gwaewyn how are things. The Irish premiere of 'The Two Tower' is on the 17th of December at Savoy. It will cost a bit but I am tempted to go.

{So this post is not totally of the point}


The Fir Bolg in Irish lore can be seen to resemble the creatures of Morgoth in some respect.

[Alcarinque]

Oh dear all my stuff on Beorn is gone...I'll see if I can find it saved somewhere when I get home, I might have time there to discuss the Tuatha de Danaan (I've got an interest in them so I'll see if I can contribute anything):)

[Will Whitfoot]

That is really interesting stuff, Gwaewyn. So much is known about Tolkien's Old English, Norse etc. sources that the Celtic connection is often forgotten. He was so widely read that I am sure he knew the Irish stuff as well as the Welsh, even if he didn't read it in the original.

Of course, he did his best to put us off the scent by pretending not to like "mad" Celtic mythology. ;)

[oldmanwillow]

-ps, I had responded to your query concerning Tolkien and Mythical influences. However, I recently learned that some post were lost due to the "propagation" of the internet. Tho others may know what exactly "propagation" of the internet might mean; I do not....Except that I'm already agin' it! For I had composed a master thesis on the subject, only to learn that now it languishes in cyber-space.. never to inlighten the, er...un-inlightened.;)
The scope was grand in it's conception; encompassing the Sumerian epic of Gilgamesh to the aspects of modern urban legend. I have attempted to re-create it in essence, yet such scholarly work comes rarely; if at all and I find impossible to recapture.
Curse this foul "propagation"! :D

[Gwaewyn]

I'll hopefully be able to tell you about the Mabinogion (!) next term. :)

[jallan]

Be aware that Tolkien thought source criticism was largely vain and that much of his work had already been well digested and mixed before it got into this own writing so that he himself could often not have told you from where something came.

He thought he had invented the word hobbit, but was not sure. Perhaps it might have come from something he had read, though he felt that at the time he had known nothing of the folklore about hobs and hobbards and such.

After his death it became known that the hobbit had appeared previously in The Denham Tracts. Had Tolkien once perused this work and did the word stick in his subconcious. We will never know, other than by finding that a copy had been checked out from some library by Tolkien at some date, if indeed records of such trivia have been kept for so long

The story of the birth and wandering of a people for long years before the first rising of the Sun occurs in the Mayan Popul Voh. Is this a source or a coincidence?

The idea of Elves passing to a paradise beyond the Sea is undoubtedly related to Irish tales of the Tuatha Dé Danaan, some of whom are pictured as dwelling in isles to the west, and there are tales of mortal men being brought to one of those isles, or sailing there themselves.

But to really uncover the source material used by Tolkien, even limiting oneself to legendary and mythological material alone, it would be necessary to read every single work that Tolkien might have read in any of the languages he knew before he wrote The Lord of the Rings, including all tales that he might have read as a child or had read to him.

Yet if you find parallels in the Persian Shah Namah or a medieval short story in The Boy's Own Paper, how to know whether they are coincidental or not, how to know whether Tolkien had indeed read that particular work or that particular passage from a work.

One might disregard some works, like Ariosto's Orlando Furioso which Tolkien said he had never read, and would not like if he had read it.

But then, how would Tolkien know enough about it to feel that way without reading it? He must have read at least summaries of some of its contents, so even such works cannot be dismissed altogether.

To make things worse, in some cases Tolkien may have been strongly influenced by a negative reaction to particular works. How can this kind of influence be seen?

[oldmanwillow]

How could one possibly know what sources of mythology may have influenced Tolkien, (except where noted by the author) and as you correctly point out; clear references to previous perused material of which Tolkien may have forgotten at the time.

Which begs the question; Did Tolkien knowingly use obscure material and stake claim to the materials originality? After all, I seriously doubt, that Tolkien would have thought that his writings would be so meticulously, scrutinized as it has, by later-day scholars! ( Don't get mad anyone! Just a thought.) :)

Seriously though, having read a couple translations of the "Epic of Gilgamesh", I couldn't help but notice how similar the themes and chactors! This perhaps, the oldest recorded "myth" of humanity!

Does anyone know if Tolkien referenced Gilgamesh? My daughter's recently wrote a paper on Heroic themes for her senior HS class and her english lit teacher had never even heard of Gilgamesh!!!! (I don't know if that's good or bad? :D )

[jallan]

Oldmanwillow posted:Did Tolkien knowingly use obscure material and stake claim to the materials originality?Tolkien noted in several places that his Elves were really not equatable with the Elves of legends and folklore and that even his Dwarves were not entirely the Dwarfs of Norse legend.

On the other hand he noted that the story of Túrin was based on elements from the tale of Sigurð, the story of Kullervo from the Kalevala and the story of Oedipus.

So, the answer would be that sometimes Tolkien knowingly modified material commonly known, sometimes used material less well known, and also often invented. But even when he borrows Tolkien adapts with enormous feedom. His legendarium is not congruent with any traditional mythology or legendarium.

Where Tolkien has staked a claim to originality, as in the form but not the content of the riddle in the riiddle game, he seems to be honest about it. When a particular source can be found for a passage, Tolkien generally doesn't follow it for very long.

The only point when I am somewhat dubious is in Tolkien's denial of any relation between his ring and the Nibelungen Ring.

He may here have been partly over-reacting to Åke Ohlmark's absurd explanations and nonsensical mythological history of the ring in Norse texts, and instead have been thinking of the ring as it appears in the actual Nibelungenlied. Wagner did make something different out of it.

Ruth Noel wrote a book, supposedly covering Tolkien's use of mythology and legend, and there is a delicious review of it at Speaking of scathing book reviews (Tolkien's Bio) (http://www.notelrac.com/essays.dir/f_and_sf.dir/tolkien.dir/cutting_review.html). The faults found here are those found in much supposed source criticism of many authors (and film directors and musicians and pictorial artists).

Åke Ohlmarks wrote a book on Tolkien's sources, of which I once found review on the web in a biography and discussion of Ohlmarks, but I cannot find it now.

I recall that the book was described as mostly a discussion of names from medieval sources and mythological sources which were similar to Tolkien's names, and therefore, according to Ohlmarks, must be Tolkien's sources, for example Isildur from Isolde. In some few cases Ohlmarks is certainly correct.

But try yourself to invent names that aren't similar to pre-existing names or words. If you think you have succeeded, search on the web for the name and for slight variants of the name.

Also, Tolkien in Letters discusses how he sometimes borrowed names because of the sound, but that these were casual and are unimportant to any understanding of the book. Moria comes from the story Soria Moria Castle (http://www.belinus.co.uk/fairytales/Red/RedFairy03.htm) but there is no other connection with the tale. The element -dor "-land'' in Gondor, Mordor, Eriador and so forth came from the -dor ending of Labrador and similar names.

I suppose Equador would be one of those "similar names". I can't think of any other. But in reality there is no connection between the -dor in Labrador and the -dor in Equador, neither means "-land", and knowing the accidental source of the name Moria and the element -dor, while possessing a certain interest, is no help at all in understanding anything in Tolkien's use of Moria and -dor in his stories.

Tolkien's statements do indicate how unlikely it is that anyone could identify many of his sources and how little the exact source of a name or indicents matters in any case.

That is not true for all authors, and even for Tolkien there is an enrichment for a reader who is already familiar with the Dwarf names from Norse legends, knows something about the Irish Tuatha Dé Danaan, fantastic voyages, tales of Merlin, the Atlantis legend, Beowulf and so forth.

Yet in Tolkien's adaptation of the Atlantis story he could have easily followed many of Plato's details. But he did not bother to do this.

Anyone who expects to find Tolkien using faithfully any of the traditions that Tolkien does draw from will be disappointed.

David Day's recent book Tolkien's Ring attempts to track down early accounts of magic rings that were Tolkien's sources .... or something.

But some of Day's material was almost certainly not known by Tolkien and definitely not used by him if known. What has a ring bouncing about on a shaman's drum have to do with any use of a ring anywhere in Tolkien?

Day's book is a good piece of work in presenting summaries and commentaries on magic rings in general, but for most will not prove enlightening about Tolkien's fiction.

A discussion of some of Tolkien's sources which I find generally good can be found at Materials on "The Lord of the Rings and Other 20th Century British Fantasy" (http://www.uni-klu.ac.at/~jkoeberl/) in one of the lectures here: "LOTR: Sources and Influences".

I don't recall any mention that would suggest Tolkien knew anything about Gilgamesh, though I find it hard to imagine he did not, as he lived through the period of its discovery.

But save for one mention in a letter, we would not know that Tolkien very much liked Isaac Asimov's science-fiction.

Years ago a parody article of mine "proving" that the Gilgamesh story and The Lord of the Rings were variants of a common original was published in Mythlore.

[oldmanwillow]

Originally posted by jallan

Years ago a parody article of mine "proving" that the Gilgamesh story and The Lord of the Rings were variants of a common original was published in Mythlore.

I don't know if you meant the parody as merely jest, but it sounds very interesting. Is it still available?

[Samwise the Brave]

Can Aragorn be the "King to return" from Arthurian legend? I only ask this because I was watching Excalibur the other night the thought popped into my head, "Aragorn = Returned Arthur, Narsil/Anduril = Excalibur, etc".

Could Tolkien have used Arthurian legend to help shape the character of Aragorn?

8^B

[Will Whitfoot]

Samwise, I would put that slightly differently. It would be impossible for Tolkien not to have had the Arthurian myths in mind.:)

The chivalric romances of the 12th-15th centuries (e.g. "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" which he edited) were a vital part of the medieval literature which it was his job to teach, and the structure of these romances (particularly the alternation of an episode in which the hero is tested with a "resting" episode in a pleasant place such as Lórien) is also typical of LotR.:) There is no doubt that they influenced his writing.

That being so he could not have written a phrase like "the Return of the King" without thinking of Arthur and the legends of his future return. jallan wrote: Years ago a parody article of mine "proving" that the Gilgamesh story and The Lord of the Rings were variants of a common original was published in Mythlore. :rotfl: That is brilliant. It reminds me of the 19th-century spoof that was written after the appearance of Frazer's "Golden Bough" proving that Gladstone was a solar myth. :D

[_ps]

ps, I had responded to your query concerning Tolkien and Mythical influences. However, I recently learned that some post were lost due to the "propagation" of the internet. [Oldmanwillow]


Same happened to me! I had posted some more ideas concerning the relationship between Snorri's prose Edda and Tolkien's world. Which I have forgotten by now. :D Interesting to hear about your Master's thesis though!


Which begs the question; Did Tolkien knowingly use obscure material and stake claim to the materials originality? After all, I seriously doubt, that Tolkien would have thought that his writings would be so meticulously, scrutinized as it has, by later-day scholars! ( Don't get mad anyone! Just a thought.) :) [Oldmanwillow]


And an interesting one. But from what I have read of Tolkien, I have come to be very much convinced that Tolkien respected and treasured the way myths come about, namely by borrowing. Beowulf is very likely to have evolved from the (Irish?) tale called, erm, something close to Hand Child Tale, and most myths have come about by way of borrowing and merging. It seems to me that Tolkien was thankful to be just a person in the long chain of 'story-distorters,' if you will. In other words, I think that originality was not his main objective.

Good work about the Irish all! I have read fragments of the Book of Invasions, and I have read the Tain Bo Cuailnge--well, in translation I have--but I had not noticed the similarities. I thank you all for your sharp minds!

Coming up in a few weeks: some ideas about Kalevala's Aino. But that is AFTER I have installed my speech recognition software--this keyboard is killing me.

[jallan]

Oldmanwillow posted:I don't know if you meant the parody as merely jest, but it sounds very interesting. Is it still available?Probably. I think the Mythopoeic Society keeps all copies of Mythlore in print.

I gave up on the Mythopoeic Society years ago and don't know much about what they are doing now.

I recall that Galadriel was Siduri and Shelob and the Watcher in the water were conflated with the scorpion men in Gilgamesh, all three encountered before passing through a dark tunnel.

On Celtic influence in Tolkien ... I don't see a great deal of influence the surviving stories, though some of what I do see is very important, notably the voyages to immortal lands in the west and a certain subtle feeling sometimes which one might call Elvish.

But the whole otherworld underpinning of Celtic mythology and legend is entirely missing in Tolkien, except perhaps in Smith of Wootton Major.

Stylistically the Irish tales are both wilder and far more stylized than the Germanic tales that have survived or than Classical mythology, which is what Tolkien probably was talking about when he described them as mad.

They resemble in some ways tall tales of the American west or Baron Munchausen, sometimes filled with rough humor and delighting in the grotesque and in exageration for its own sake.

I find many of them delightful, but not often at all in Tolkien's style.

The native Welsh tales that have survived also have this wildness with "Culhwch and Olwen" surpassing anything else known in Irish sources.

I think myself that Culhwch and Olwen is an intentional tour-de-force parody, but probably not preserved complete.

Hindu legend has similar wild and exagerated qualities, indeed perhaps even more fantastic on the whole, but it is weighed down by moral and theological concerns, perhaps because mostly preserved by Brahmans interested in spiritual and moral and theological meanings.

Germanic myth and legend is usually more more restrained than Celtic material as is medieval romance, even medieval romance adapting Celtic material.

But Tolkien does not usually write in Germanic styles either.

Tolkien's true first literary ancestor is William Morris, so far as I can determine, though if you want to go back to Ruskin's fairy tale The King of the Golden River I won't quibble.

The idea of a river turning to gold occurs more than once as a metaphor in The Hobbit.

The fantasy writing of Ruskin, Morris and George MacDonald have very much in common with each other and with Tolkien.

Sources for their fantasy works, when they can be spotted, are usually limited to particular motifs or phrases or frameworks or very short passages.

Tolkien's story of Túrin is somewhat an exception and he so presents it in the Book of Lost Tales where the teller remarks that versions are still told in the world of Men, but doubtless they have mixed it with other stories.

There are also more than accidental resemblance between the Fall of Gondolin and Virgil's Aeneid.

But as to the belief that The Hobbit is actually Beowulf transformed. I think that a gross exageration accepted in full by those who don't know how many Beowulf motifs are found elsewhere and how much in The Hobbit has parallels outside of Beowulf.

You could probably make a full book out of riddle contests alone along with variants of the riddles that Tolkien presents.

A lot of the Celtic feel to Tolkien's Elves is because Sindarin was based on the Welsh phonology and so contains many elements that one recognizes from Welsh names even if one doesn't know that language.

But in the Book of Lost Tales material Tolkien is strangely adamant that the Welsh and Irish don't possess true fairy tradition while the English do. But the tradition he means is actually his own inventions.

Tolkien soon dropped that strange and unsustainable conceit.

[oldmanwillow]

Originally posted by jallan
I recall that Galadriel was Siduri and Shelob and the Watcher in the water were conflated with the scorpion men in Gilgamesh, all three encountered before passing through a dark tunnel.
[/B]

LOL! What about Enki as Sam? Gilgameshs' faithfull servant. Though, somehow I can't help thinking he is more similiar to Chubacca, the Wokie! LOL

[Saeros]

Some possible connection to Norse Myths:

Odin's ring (Brisinggamen) spawned nine rings every month. Possible relation to Sauron's One Ring and the Nine it controlled..?

Gandalf's staff is made of ash. The ash is the Norse world tree (Yggdrasil) and carries a special magic quality.

The story off Beren's fight with Carcharoth corresponds to Tyr's fight with the Fenris-Wolf... Both lose their hands.

Gandalf's appearance mirrors that of Odin when he walked the world, only Odin was of course one-eyed.