I need some help with elves! - Council-of-Elrond Forums

Aranel ó Lorien · #1 01-29-2010, 09:39 PM

Ok so I know that there are all different types of elves Like Noldor, Sindar, Silvan, etc. but I'm a bit confused as to what the different types "abilities" are. I mean, Galadriel is a Noldor and she can read minds and can talk telepathically but is it possible for all Noldor to have that?

I seriously need some help with elves cuz i have no clue!

I also need some help with this: Ok so in my fanfiction that I'm writting *WARNING BIG SPOILER!!!* Aranel (My OC) is the granddaughter of Gil-galad. (I know it says in the family tree that he never married but nobody said anything about no kids!) Now I also looked in the character database and it said that He was a Noldor. Now I have no clue about what Aranel's mother was. But I am "assuming" since I have no clue and that Aranel is 100% elf that Aranel would be a Noldor.

I just need some help because I need something plausible.

Big thank you's go out to anyone with ANY HELP!!

Thurin · #2 01-29-2010, 10:53 PM

Well the "abilities" depend on the power the Elf possesses, not their kind. I suggest you read The Silmarillion, or at least a some of the first chapters to help you understand.

Aranel ó Lorien · #3 01-29-2010, 10:55 PM

Ok thanks Thurin! See I was just curious because of what Galadriel can do and stuff But thanks! and I'll be sure to read the Simarillion as soon as I get done reading the trilogy and the hobbit!

Telperion flowers · #4 01-30-2010, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aranel ó Lorien

Ok thanks Thurin! See I was just curious because of what Galadriel can do and stuff But thanks! and I'll be sure to read the Simarillion as soon as I get done reading the trilogy and the hobbit!

Galadriel was ringbear and that is why she can read minds.

The different types of elves you also will meet in the hobbit.

Aranel ó Lorien · #5 01-30-2010, 03:02 PM

Oooohhhh!!!! Now it makes sense! Thanks very much!

Elthir · #6 01-31-2010, 01:40 AM

Generally speaking, concerning the Eldar and marriage: 'It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete.' JRRT, Laws And Customs Among The Eldar, Morgoth's Ring

Also I don't think one needed to have been a Ringbearer to transfer thought. Tolkien wrote an essay ósanwe-kenta, Enquiry into the Communication of thought, part of which reads: 'The Incarnates have by the nature of sáma the same faculties; but their perception is dimmed by the hroa, for their fea is united to their hroa and its normal procedure is through the hroa, which is in itself part of Ea, without thought. The dimming is indeed double; for thought has to pass one mantle of hroa and penetrate another. For this reason in Incarnates transmission of thought requires strengthening to be effective. Strengthening can be by affinity, by urgency, or by authority.'

There's lots more! but for all the details one will have to have Vinyar Tengwar number 39.

____________________

sáma 'mind'

fea (short meaning) 'soul, indwelling spirit, of an incarnate being'

hroa 'body (of an incarnate being)'

Telperion flowers · #7 01-31-2010, 04:34 AM

Also I don't think one needed to have been a Ringbearer to transfer thought. Tolkien wrote an essay ósanwe-kenta, Enquiry into the Communication of thought, part of which reads: 'The Incarnates have by the nature of sáma the same facilities; but their perception is dimmed by the hroa, for their fear is united to their rhoa and its normal procedure is through the hroa, which is in itself part of Ea, without thought. The dimming is indeed double; for thought has to pass one mantle of hroa and penetrate another. For this reason in Incarnates transmission of thought requires strengthening to be effective. Strengthening can be by affinity, by urgency, or by authority.'

All ringbearer have to lev, that tells more about the power of the rings, that is also why Frodo have to lev.
All the rings have power to do things, but to tell that, it will spoil the books reading for the TS'er and I don't do that

Teleparti is another thing from what Galadriel can do, Galadriel can dick in the mind to find things that the person not wont to tell by them self.
When Galadriel was temptet to take the ring from Frodo it was her biggest fall, then it told all that she wont to have the power over all kind.

Elthir · #8 02-01-2010, 09:26 AM

Basically I'm saying that Gil-galad needs to be married to have children; and that no ring is needed for speaking mind to mind, something that (very generally speaking!) Incarnates in general can do -- which is arguably different from reading minds in any case. I wanted to be clear to Aranel that no ring was needed for the power I was referring to (although I could have made this distinction clearer, admittedly).

I hate to post spoilers myself. I would much (much!) rather people read the books first. But that said, I think avoiding spoilers is really up to the people who have not read the book but yet still visit websites about Tolkien and his work. If one comes to such a forum, spoilers are to be expected. For this post I'll add some space, but generally I just post about the books and hope that people who care are taking their own precautions.

***spoiler alert***

I would say speaking from mind to mind is a bit different from insight into other minds, in any case. Galadriel and Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, which is saying a lot. She was without a ring of power for thousands of years and could not use it until the Third Age even after receiving it (in the Second Age). In Tolkien's The Shibboleth of Feanor, it was said of Galadriel: 'From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her good will from none save Feanor.'

That is not to say Nenya did not enhance Nerwen's natural powers in general, but I'm just noting that she had a notable gift here well before Nenya came to her (Nenya's chief power was that of preservation of course -- essentially the preservation of beauty -- holding back the unwanted effects of time).

Aranel ó Lorien · #9 02-01-2010, 10:22 AM

Wow!! That's really awsome! Rim hennaid! I just wanted to make sure because (since my characters are taking over my fanfic) Aranel is probably going to have similar abilities because.....(read at your own risk!)

*SPOILER ALERT!!*

....Aranel is a Noldor and is Gil-galad's granddaughter, and she's also Galadriel's cousin three times removed. (if I read the family tree right cause it looks like Gil-galad is Galadriel's cousin 1 time removed) so she could have had those abilities before her mother brought her to Lothlorien, and when she was there *under the care of Galadriel and Celeborn* she could have awakened her abilities and Galadriel could have taught her how to control them.

So that could have happened and since it makes sense I think I'll go with it!

Elthir · #10 02-01-2010, 04:06 PM

You might find variations in the family tree with respect to Gil-galad. His history (the external history that is, meaning Tolkien changing his mind about this character) is a bit complicated, but two points can be noted: the obvious one is that in the 1977 Silmarillion Gil-galad is the son of Fingon.

However Christopher Tolkien later reported that this idea was probably ephemeral, and that his father's last word on the subject has Gil-galad as the son of Orodreth -- with Orodreth being the son of Angrod (Orodreth is called Arothir later). And Finduilas becomes the sister of Gil-galad.

So Gil-galad became the grandson of Galadriel's brother. He was named Artanáro (Sindarin Rodnor) and given the nickname Gil-galad because his helm, mail and shield -- overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars -- shone from afar like a star in sunlight or moonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height.

Ancalima · #11 03-30-2010, 03:04 AM

It says in the Silmarillion that the Noldor were good at building and writing and were strong and clever, but the Sindar were more skilled in music and loved the woods and rivers.

Bad Lag · #12 03-31-2010, 02:06 PM

Umm, ... are you writing fanfiction without having read the original works? Seems a bit backwards to me.

I think the level within the elf heirarchy and when you were born is more important than the branch of the tree you are on. For example, consider the Eldar such as Fingolfin, Feanor and Gil-Galad versus Legolas Greenleaf (who is a prince) or the generic singing elves of Rivendell. I think Tolkien uses this same heirarchy for Men. Consider the first age men such as Tuor or the Numenoreans versus the common man in the fourth age. There is a dissipation and a lessing of the "quality" as time progresses. There are "high" elves and lowly elves in the same way there are "high" men (long lived, artisitic, educated, involved, ...) and lowly men (shorter lived, less accomplished, crude,...). I see this as analogouss to the British system of royalty and commoners.

**Cully** · #13 03-31-2010, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Lag

UThere are "high" elves and lowly elves in the same way there are "high" men (long lived, artisitic, educated, involved, ...) and lowly men (shorter lived, less accomplished, crude,...). I see this as analogouss to the British system of royalty and commoners.

I think a lot of Brits would take serious issue with this statement! Basically, you're saying that the 'high' elves are inbred, intellectually challenged, chinless wonders. Hmmm, I think Galadriel and a few others would disagree as well.

Aranel ó Lorien · #14 03-31-2010, 09:14 PM

Here Here!!!

It's not really backwards when your best friends are Tolkien addicts who you can get talking about nothing but elves for about two hours. I don't think that the elves are actually "classed" (per say) in that way.

Bad Lag · #15 04-01-2010, 12:58 AM

Well, when there are "elves" and then there are "Elf Lords" and "Elven Kings" and there was even one "High King" over all the other "Elven Kings", then , yes, I think there is a stratified heirarchy within the the Elves. Tolkien's use of Lords and Kings would seem to invalidate your argument.

I never mentioned anything about inbred, intellectually challenged, chinless,... but as long as you mention it,... :-)