The Wizards of Middle Earth

[Lady Mithril]

I noticed our "former" threads about the Istari hadn't shown up yet, and my weekly DVD viewing has raised some issues that I thought could kick off a new thread.

For starters, just what kind of powers did Tolkien's wizards have? Per the books, we know that Saruman had the power of a "hypnotic" voice and Gandalf had powers involving fire and light. We tend not to care about the others - particularly since they get little (Radagast) to no mention in the books.

The books seem to convey that Gandalf & Saruman had more "powers" than we get to see on film, yet - take the "wizard's duel" scene - what kind of power was held within each of their staffs? Are we to believe that a wizard without a staff is completely powerless? We obviously can't assume that with or without a staff - the Istari can "do" very much (no apparating, levitating, conjuring, or changing shape/form a la the "Harry Potter" variety of wizard.)

So, beyond knowing alot of stuff from having lived for hundreds/thousands of years - what makes our wizards so special?

As I think Gandalf asks somewhere in the text "Why did the Vala send me here in this old man's body?" (paraphrased)

Why did they, indeed?

[Hellga]

Why? Because the Valar gave up whatever power they had to shape the destiny of Arda with the drowning of Numenor. They could no longer directly affect what was going on (ala Ulmo pushing Tuor). That is why Gandalf et al. had to be sent in old men's bodies without much of their abilities. They were also forbidden to use threats, etc. to make free people of Middle Earth to cooperate (that makes us think whether Gandalf was reprimanded for his becoming a large shadowy figure and coercing Bilbo into giving up the Ring).

Their power was in experience, and in the ability to counteract shadow (Nazgul, Balrogs, etc). Besides, I would not refuse ability to set something on fire or talk to birds and beasts.

However, wizards are not my area of expertise, so I will leave question of their powers to someone else.

[ShadowWynd]

The Istari were sent by the Valar to counteract the power of Sauron. The Valar choose a select number of their Maia servants to perform this task. However, they were not to use their innate Maia abilites unless there was no other option. They were supposed to counteract Sauron by wise council, not by strength of arms. Therefore, the Istari were sent to Middle Earth incarnated into the bodies of old men, save that they aged not.

There are two known ways that Maia and Valar "interact" with the physical world. The first is an "avatar", in which the Maia/Valar generates a form through telegenesis, then controls the form. Think "glove with a hand inside" or "puppet". Sauron, the Balrogs, Melian, and all physical representations of Ainu are done in this manner. The Ainu can change the form at will, and if the form is destroyed, the Ainu can usually make another. Any abilities possessed by the Ainu can be wielded through this body. For instance, if a Balrog wants a giant fireball, all the Maia controlling the balrog body has to do is think "Giant Fireball" and the giant fireball appears.

The other form is that of the Istari. In this case, the Ainu spirit was actually linked to a body (this required special permission from Eru). However, if this form is destroyed, the Ainu (Maia in this case) can not simply have another body. Also, the powers of the Maia are locked away. If Gandalf wants a giant fireball, he must first remember how a giant fireball is made, then tap into his hidden powers as Olorin, then create the giant fireball.

The staffs were granted to the Istari as a symbol of authority from the Valar, a "permission" to use white magic. In other words, the staffs are a sign of approval from the Valar for their servants to act as angels, instead of old men, if the need should arise.

The power that the Maia possesed is incredible. Remember from the Silmarillion, when the Valar and Maia got pissed, a LOT of damage was generated. Numenor is destroyed, the North is laid to ruin, etc. etc. Unless the Istari came up against another Maia (Sauron, Balrogs, etc) their Maia abilities (which they are not allowed to use) would be equal or surpassing any other foe in Middle Earth. As an example, when the White Council overthrew Dol Guldur, I would hazard that the strength of the three wizards (Gandalf, Radagast, and Saruman) made the victory possible.

As an example of how this works, consider the time when Gandalf and friends are beset by wolves (right before Moria). Gandalf holds his staff aloft (i.e. displaying the token that what he is about to do is proper) and shouts in Elvish "Fire be the saving of us! Fire against the werewolf host!" and the whole hilltop goes up in a raging inferno. If someone asks you to list off the nine planets, you would probably recall to mind a phrase such as "My very educated mother just served us nine pizzas" to remember the order of the planets. Gandalf is doing the same thing, using a phrase to remember how to turn the hilltop into fire.

The power that turned the hilltop to flame is not in the tongue (although he used elvish (Olorin's first, and most familiar, language) he could have used any language he knew. The power was not in the words, since they were just a memory device. The same spell, if spoken by Saruman, or by Radagast, would not have produced the same effect, since it was a personal remembrance tool by Gandalf as to how to use his Maia abilities. The power was not in the staff (as we shall see in a minute), but the power came from the Maia Olorin.

Were the Istari powerless without their staffs? Indeed not, but it places big restrictions on what they can do. Everytime the Istari act as an angel with other people around, they HAVE to have the staff as a symbol of authority. However, when Gandalf cracks the bridge of Khazad-dum and he and the Balrog fall into the chasm, Gandalf shatters his staff. Staff is gone, finito. Gandalf is eventually dragged by the Balrog to the peak of Zirak-Zigel, where he fights the Balrog for 11 days. Think about this for a bit. Gandalf is in the body of an old man. He is going to have limited endurance. A similar old man, such as Denethor (who was battle hardened) would not have stood up against the Balrog for more than 2 minutes, tops. Somehow, Gandalf was able to match the fire, shadow, and strength of the Balrog for 11 days before finally defeating the bugger and throwing him down the side of the mountain. Yet his staff was broken. The only way this would be possible if he was fighting using his power as Olorin. This is part of the restrictions placed on the Istari from the beginning, they were not to use their powers to gather worship from others.

Saruman never fell to the dark side completely. When he imprisoned Gandalf at Orthanc, he never took Gandalf's staff (unlike the movie). Saruman was not stupid, he knew he did not have the authority to take Gandalf's symbol of authority by force. A civilian or a police officer can not take another officer's badge; the badge is bestowed and removed by the captain of the police, or some other figure of authority of greater rank). When Gandalf the White confronts Saruman, he first requests the staff of Saruman (playing nice, no rules broken if Saurman surrenders the staff willingly). When Saruman refuses, Gandalf destroys Saruman's staff. He had received authority to do this from Eru. Saruman still had his abilities (such as his voice, with which he persuades Treebeard), but his permission to act as an angel had been revoked.

Saruman could have still used his Maia abilities, but this would have been a BIG no-no. He knew that Gandalf had returned from death. He knew (at least when Gandalf hauled him back to the railing) that Gandalf had been enhanced far above himself. Saruman knew at that point that Gandalf had been in direct contact with either Eru or the Valar, and that he had been told on, and so he (Saruman) was already in big trouble with the Valar. He was not stupid enough to deliberately P.O. the Valar by using his Maia abilities without permission. If he had abjectly humbled himself, and sought the pardon of the Valar, it would have been granted (there would be punishment, but eventually he would have been allowed to return). Gandalf, Galadriel (and Frodo) spared Saruman, hoping that he would still find a cure and redemption, but he repeatedly chose to reject offers of friendship and aid, and chose instead to continue to cause trouble, and so when he was slain, he was rejected by the Valar and cast into the Void.


On a side note, Radagast could converse with the birds and animals. It says that he is a master of colors and shapes, so it is reasonable to assume he is a camoflauge expert bar none, practically invisible if he so chooses, and possible with the ability to shape-shift as well.

[Lady Mithril]

Wow ShadowWynd - that's quite a treatise! Did you get all of that from the Sil and/or HoME and/or Unfinished Tales? I must be missing out on something!

I'm still a bit unclear about how different the characterizations are of Saruman and Gandalf b/t the book and movie. The wizards' duel is effective but I find it odd that either would resort to using their staffs for inflicting physical harm on another of their kind. It also begs the question for the book: just how DID Saruman manage to hold Gandalf captive? In the book he says "They took me and set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc..." Huge contrast here from print to film - film of course needed to have dramatic impact and really make us hate Saruman (it worked!) Using the staffs in the duel also serves to lessen their "wizardliness" (for me anyway) and make them more like the "Harry Potter" kind of wizard.

[Námo]

Originally posted by Lady Mithril
I'm still a bit unclear about how different the characterizations are of Saruman and Gandalf b/t the book and movie.

I don't understand what you are asking. Can you clarify that question?

Originally posted by Lady Mithril
It also begs the question for the book: just how DID Saruman manage to hold Gandalf captive?

This is an opinion, but I have always imagined it similar to the scene that ShadowWynd already mentioned:

'Good day!' He [Saruman] turned and left the balcony.
'Come back, Saruman!' said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again, and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard. His face was lined and shrunken. His hand clutched his heavy black staff like a claw.

Saruman, at the time of Gandalf's confrontation with him, was still the head of the order of the Istari. When Gandalf returns as the White, he takes Saruman's place:

'Yes, I am in white now,' said Gandalf. 'Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.'

So I believe that when Saruman took Gandalf captive, it was much more of a quiet, mental stuggle, constrasting with the violent 'wizard duel' of the film.

Interesting to note is the fact that Tolkien uses "they" when referring to the ones who put Gandalf atop Orthanc. Perhaps this suggests that Gandalf was indeed taken by physical means, maybe by some of Saruman's servants. Does anyone know any more about this?

Oh, and just a little side note: When Gandalf lit the tree on fire during the wolf attack, he used Sindarin, not Quenya, so it wouldn't be Olórin's first or most familiar tongue. That, I believe, should be Valarin.

[Turnar]

About the "Why did the Valar send me here in an old man's body" part, it's kind of funny when you think about it. Nine Ringwraiths, the most fearful and evil beings to live in the Third Age (excepting Sauron) got their butts kicked by an old guy on a horse. The old guy took out a large fire-demon by himself. No question that the Valar have a sense of humor.

[Yaksha]

I think they sent them as old men because they didn't want them coming as beings of power to be worshipped, but men to look up to and respect and to learn from.

Plus, the Valar didn't exactly want to have everyone know where they come from. Old Men with knowledge and power would be easier to understand than Men of youth.

[ShadowWynd]

Most of the infomation is from the Letters and the Silm, but there is a good section in "Unfinished Tales" devoted to the Istari.

Oh, and just a little side note: When Gandalf lit the tree on fire during the wolf attack, he used Sindarin, not Quenya, so it wouldn't be Olórin's first or most familiar tongue. That, I believe, should be Valarin.

Valarin? The tongue spoken by the Valar?
I seem to recall something about the Valar not needing a language, communicating with thought. I seem to recall it being said that at one point that spoken language came first from the elves. In any case, it further establishes the point that the words or language are not the source of Gandalf's power. Likewise, I do not know what language the Istari spoke when the first arrived from the blessed realm.

As far as Gandalf's imprisonment by Saruman, I feel it was something similar to Namo's interpretation. Saruman was the chief of the order. He could have restrained Gandalf temporarily using his power as the White, and then had his orcs take him to the top of the tower. Nothing on the order of slamming each other onto the walls.

Also, Saruman had just revealed his burning desire for the one Ring. Gandalf had come to Isengard because Radagast had told him that the Nine were abroad, searching for the Shire and for the Ring. Saruman guessed, and guessed rightly, that if Gandalf were released, he would race back to the Shire to try and rescue Frodo and the One Ring. Gandalf realized this as well. Truely, he was caught in a web. If he stayed on the top of Orthanc, the greatest hunters in the world would catch and kill the witless hobbit and reclaim the Ring of Power. If he escaped using his Maia abilities, Saruman and his orcs would pursue him, letting Gandalf lead them to the Shire, lead them to the Ring, at which point Saruman would take it. The only other choice available to Gandalf was to submit to Saruman, and tell him where the Ring was located.

It is exactly the sort of trap the cunning mind of Saruman could be expected to set. The only weak thread was the Eagles. When Gwahir lifted Gandalf away, he was in Rohan before anyone in Isengard (except the wolves) knew he was gone. This gave Gandalf the advantage of being able to start for the Shire without immediate pursuit.

[Námo]

This is from Ardalambion :

The Valar had made their own language, undoubtedly the oldest of all the tongues of Arda. They did not need a spoken language; they were angelic spirits and could easily communicate telepathically. But as the Ainulindalë tells, "the Valar took to themselves shape and hue" when they entered Eä at the beginning of Time. They became self-incarnate. "The making of a lambe [language] is the chief character of an Incarnate," Pengolodh the sage of Gondolin observed. "The Valar, having arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves" (WJ:397). There was no doubt that this was indeed the case, for there were references to the language of the Valar in the old lore of the Noldor.

WJ refers to HoME 11: The War of the Jewels.

[ShadowWynd]

I stand corrected, never gotten to HoME 11.

[Námo]

It takes patience and a will of iron, I'm sure. I wouldn't know, though -- I haven't gotten there either!

[grond]

Dear ShadowWynd,



g

[Sijy]

I'm reading through LOTR again(forgot how many times I've read it), and am at the part where the three hunters see the "old man" in Fangorn...I was wondering if the book ever explicitly said that it was Sauruman or Gandalf(I haven't read HoME so it might be in there).

I seem toe recall Gandalf saying that it wasn't him at their fire the night before, but the evidence doesn't point to Sauruman...the horses weren't frightened, he didn't try to attack/capture them(or maybe Sauruman had already diminished by then and was too weak to conted with the hunters(which I don't believe)).

Could it have been Radagast...he was in tune with the animals...I forgot the description of Radagast, if there was one, but does anyone know for sure?

[ShadowWynd]

Well, it wasn't Radagast. Radagast's color was brown, and he rarely left Rhopsodel (spelling?) except at great need. Rhopsodel was near the forest of Mirkwood, so it would be quite the long trip.

As far as I know, there is not a definitive answer given to "who was the old man". In early drafts, it was scribbled that it was Saruman, but this was removed in later drafts.

The old man was not real. He left no footprint, vanished without a trace. If it was real, and Saruman, the three Amigos would most likely be defeated, or at the least persuaded into telling what they knew. I seriously dobt that the three amigos could have given Saruman much trouble. Gandalf the Grey was able to withstand the nine at Weathertop, I do not think Saruman the White would have been troubled by an elf, a dwarf, and a ranger. Saruman had been busy with spies and his palantir. It is safe to assume that he knew the race and name of every member of the fellowship. Given his lust for the Ring, he would not pass up a chance for information.

It has been guessed by some that Saruman was there, trying to find clues from the battle. While this is somewhat plausible, the forest of Fanghorn was quite a long way from Isengard, especially on foot. Saruman was not out for a midnight stroll. Also, Saruman was seeking power, and had grown accustomed to the power and security of Orthanc. It would be a foreign idea for him to leave Orthanc, alone (no orcs, or men as an entourage) and wander, "powerless" out into the wilds, to the very plains of Rohan. It is possible that it was a "projection" of Saruman, he could have had such power. As a projection, it served no purpose other than rile up the three amigos. If Saruman had such an ability, he should have used it at Orthanc, when the Ents were attacking. Project a decoy, run the other way. Since Quickbeam nearly caught him, we can assume that Saruman did not have this ability.

Was it Gandalf? Again, the answer appears to be no. Gandalf, even as the White, lacked the ability to walk on the grass without marking the turf. And as mentioned, Gandalf denies it was him.

There are three possibilites that are commonly accepted as valid, and all concern Gandalf's the abilities as the White. Most Tolkien-scholars believe that Gandalf the White was the maia Olorin using an avatar (see the above post) as a puppet, not Gandalf as Olorin physically incarnated into a mortal body (like Gandalf the Grey). In either case, both theories center on Gandalf the White not yet having full mastery of his abilities. Or he had full mastery, but was rusty after not interacting with the physical world in several thousand years in this manner.

Gandalf was close to the three amigos, that much is clear. The horses smelled/heard Shadowfax and ran to meet him, so Gandalf was fairly close, probably not more than two or three miles away.

The first possibility is that Gandalf was thinking about Saruman. He now had the responsibility, and the authority, as the head of the order to deal with Saurman. His thought was bent on Saruman, and the image of Saruman appeared, as an "echo" of Gandalf's thought (telegraphically). The great elvish minstrels had this ability as well, what they sang became visible.

The second is that Gandalf was focusing on finding the three amigos. Again, an unconcious echo of his thought, taking the shape of himself, appears near where he guesses them to be.

The third is that Gandalf the White was still getting used to the new body and a visual echo was produced. Think of it as the horizontal synch knob on old televisions. Again with television, if a transmitted signal reflects off of a metal beam, the television antenna receives two signals, one slightly out of step with the other (One signal is direct, the other signal, being reflected, travels a slightly longer path and arrives slightly after the original signal). This produces ghosting, or a slight afterimage, usually to the right or left of the actual signal. Using this analogy, it is possible that there were other "old men phantoms" scattered hither and yon over the plains of Rohan.

Once Gandalf mastered himself, the visual echos or telegraphic projections from his unconcious thought would have vanished. The most plausible explanation is that Olorin was still tuning the Gandalf-body avatar, and the old man that was seen was a side effect.

[Nob Boffin]

I am just now reading the Silmarillion and unfinished tales, what is HoME.

[Sijy]

HoME is a collection of books: History of Middle Earth
(don't ask me any more cause I haven't read em)

ShadowWynd , that seems like a very plausible explanation for whom the hunters saw, but I have trouble in that Gandalf wouldn't have remembered if he were there, because he says that it was probably been sauruman that they saw, and not himself...or maybe he was referring to himself as Sauruman...

[Cully]

HoME comprises of:

1 - The Book of Lost Tales: Part 1
2 - The Book of Lost Tales: Part 2
3 - The Lays of Beleriand
4 - The Shaping of Middle-earth
5 - The Lost Road and Other Writings
6 - The Return of the Shadow
7 - The Treason of Isengard
8 - The War of the Ring
9 - Sauron Defeated
10 - Morgoth's Ring
11 - The War of the Jewels
12 - The Peoples of Middle-earth

I have not read them all, but I certainly wouldn't bother with Vols 6 - 9 unless you are really interested in the creation of the LotR, right down to Strider being originally a sort of hobbit with wooden shoes, called Trotter. *shudder*. However Vols 10, 11 and 12 are definitely worth trying to get hold of. But my all time favourite is Unfinished Tales - so much better than the dry old Silm.

[Nob Boffin]

Thanks Sijy and Cully I guess I already have some of these. I agree about Unfinished Tales it is more readable that parts of the Silmarilion. I particularily liked the discussion of the Nazgul, and how they came to the Shire.

[Lady Mithril]

Originally posted by Sijy
I'm reading through LOTR again(forgot how many times I've read it), and am at the part where the three hunters see the "old man" in Fangorn...I was wondering if the book ever explicitly said that it was Sauruman or Gandalf(I haven't read HoME so it might be in there).

I seem toe recall Gandalf saying that it wasn't him at their fire the night before, but the evidence doesn't point to Sauruman...the horses weren't frightened, he didn't try to attack/capture them(or maybe Sauruman had already diminished by then and was too weak to conted with the hunters(which I don't believe)).

Could it have been Radagast...he was in tune with the animals...I forgot the description of Radagast, if there was one, but does anyone know for sure?

In the book, we find out from Gandalf, as told to A/L/G, that he saw Treebeard two days before M&P came to Fangorn (but he was still "recovering" and did not speak to Treebeard.) We know that A/L/G see an old man wandering in the forest just before their horses ran off (and ended up meeting Shadowfax.) The book never comes out and says it, but it seems fairly clear that Gandalf does not run into anyone after leaving Lothlorien until he chooses the meeting with A/L/G so it must have been Saruman.

After watching the movie again and seeing how PJ did the sequencing of events - he did some clever compressing on this line of the story. Here, it's pretty clear that "the white wizard" M&P meet is Gandalf, not Saruman. Also very nicely done is how when GTW meets the hunters, you don't see his face and the voice is that of Saruman - at first.... pretty neat.

[Gwindor]

Shadowynd, your posts are worthy of Turin Turambar, from days of old on the Imladris site. Few people realized it, but it was reading all 12 volumes of HoME that really drove Turin mad...

Just one comment on Saruman. Sauron engineered his downfall by convincing him that he must use his Maia powers. The Valar were wise enough to see that the problems of middle earth were for mortals to solve. Immortals were too susceptible to the temptations of power, whereas mortals had some humility. Unfortunately, most mortals were simply not aware of the scope of power possessed by Sauron. So the Valar sent the Istari with the stipulation that their powers not be used to change the course of mortal destiny, but only to counsel, persuade and inspire.

By the time Gandalf and company reach Theoden, Saruman's delusion has led him to do the opposite. Rather than counsel, he has lied. Rather than persuade, he has forced or blocked. Rather than inspire, he has encouraged Theoden to succumb to fear. But he had no authority to do this.

Gandalf comes in and shines light on the deception. He uses his wisdom to guide, but only speaks the truth. He never claims that Theoden can destroy his enemies, or that the future is guaranteed to go a certain way. He calls on Theoden to face the unknown with a will to do good, rather than letting fear become a self-fulfilling prophecy. And yes, he uses a little magic to light up a gloomy, overdecorated throne room.

When Saruman started actually using his powers, that was the end for him. He gave Sauron the upper hand, and cut off his own ability to act justly (i.e., according to the will of Eru). His actions very nearly gave Sauron victory.

Gandalf, on the other hand, uses his powers only when attacked. He fights the Balrog and the Nazgul in a way that mortals could not. But he does NOT allow himself to be tricked into using his powers against Saruman when he is imprisoned on top of Orthanc. That is exactly what Saruman wants: to flush out Gandalf's sacred powers and to fight him Maia to Maia. Gandalf knows that this could tip the balance and ruin the chance that mortals have to save ME on their own.

Gwindor, Son of Guilin

[ShadowWynd]

Thanks, Gwindor.

Just another note about Saruman. We see more of his state of affairs in the Shire. Saruman knows of Arwen's gift to Frodo. Saruman knows that Frodo will sail West. He deliberately tries to take Frodo's reward in two ways. The first, and most obvious, is when he stabs Frodo in the chest. He hoped to kill Frodo, yet Saruman had most likely heard of the mithril coat. He knew that Frodo most likely would still be wearing it.

Saruman knew that he was in trouble and would most likely come to a bad end. In his spite and malice, he tried to take out Frodo as well. Saruman was expecting Frodo to be wearing the mithril coat. Saruman was expecting the other hobbits to rise in wrath. Saruman, who had himself been corrupted, was expecting Frodo, if alive, to order his death.

This could have served several purposes. If Frodo had ordered the death of Saruman in anger, his ticket West would most likely be cancelled. Saruman had only the power of his voice left in his direct command. He would have probably tried to twist Frodo's execution order to his own uses, and start turning the hobbits into thralls. Instead, Frodo pities him and sets him free, thus robbing Saruman of his revenge and leaving him bitterly in Frodo's debt.

[Lady Mithril]

ShadowWynd & Gwindor - you've made some observations that never occurred to me before about these characters - I've really enjoyed reading your posts!

Of all the changes from book to movie that have really diminished alot of the story's impact for me - the most significant has been the change in the Saruman/Gandalf relationship.

I think "The Voice of Saruman" is about my favorite chapter. It is so fitting to see Gandalf the White deliver justice to the former head of the Istari. I wonder if we'll be treated to something more closely resembling the book in ROTK since that was left out of movie TTT (we can only hope.)

The nuances you pointed out SW, regarding Saruman and Frodo, are very powerful. It may be that the "Scouring" was not filmed per the book, but maybe Sharkey will still meet the ignominious end that he deserves.

Guess I'll have to start acquiring HoME... I'm missing out!

[Gwindor]

Wow. I had never considered Saruman's actions post destruction-of-the-Ring! Again, Shadowwynd, you make me consider. Saruman could easily have been so calculating. And by that time in his career, the calculations would have been very distorted. Most plausible is that he would have expected the Hobbits to rise in wrath against him for killing their Hero.

It is a very precise application of Tolkien's theme of compassion as virtue. Frodo, having learned the true power or the Enemy, insists that no blood is shed without need. This completely reverses any attempt by Saruman to force events to violence.

Tolkien served in the trenches during WWI, and this shaped his understanding of tactics, and the ultimate futility of violence as a means to achieve humane ends. In that place,violence only created more of itself, and its ends were inexplicable. JRRT is very Buddhist in distinguishing the difference between action driven by passion and action driven by a determination to end suffering! (Tolk was Catholic, I know, but Buddhism is the practice that springs to mind when I think of Frodo.)

Gwindor, Son of Guilin

[Mattapooh]

Just something that struck me and since all my other questions in the past have been so wonderfully cleared up(thanks guys!), I thought I'd throw this out.

Did Sauron know of Gandalf's work in ME? And if so, did he know him as the Grey Pilgrim or did he know that it was actually Olorin working the task given to him by the gods?

I would assume that since Sauron had contact with Saruman, he would know at least something, but even then Saruman might not even have revealed who he and Gandalf were.

Then again, there are those pesky blue wizards....

Anyways, any discussion would be just swell.

[Lady Mithril]

Welcome Mattapooh! Perhaps you'd be interested in joining our wizardly discussion here (The Wizards of Middle Earth):

http://www.council-of-elrond.com/for...=&threadid=590

[Moru]

Good evening, Mattapoo Sauron certainly knew of the activities of Gandalf and of his connection with Hobbits at the very least. At the Black Gate, the Mouth of Sauron knows Gandalf's name. Moreover he was told to show Sam and Frodos' items to Gandalf especially, out of malice. Whether Sauron deduces the Maiar nature of the Istari is another thing.
We know that from the Mouth of Sauron there were humans in Middle-Earth capable of prolonging their own lives without succumbing to the wraithing process. This seemed to depend on a surrender of will or 'soul', if you will, to a higher power, in order to gain 'forbidden knowledge'. I believe Sauron thought Gandalf to be just that- an old meddling magician, whose greatest feat was to manage to live long enough to see Saurons' ultimate defeat of the West. Certainly the Mouth of Sauron thinks no more of Gandalf than that. Sauron should have known better. Who else could have withstood the Nazgul together, at night? Who else could defy the Witch-King at the gates of Minas-Tirith, or defeat a Balrog one-on-one? And who else would have the power to so humble Saruman? An old conjurer certainly couldn't accomplish as much. It is a testament to the humility of Gandalf, despite his actions, that he is percieved by the Eye as just that. It is a testament to the arrogance of Sauron that he could not percieve Olorin within Gandalf.

[SwiftSnowmane]

Wow. That was very nicely stated, Moru. Great topic guys. Finally something in Lit discussion that poor little Swifty can understand.

*feels a swoon coming on for Olorin's humility*

[Lady Mithril]

Just want to extend the invite again - we have a thread about the Wizards of ME (especially Gandalf) already and have some wonderful discussions going on. Come join in!

The Wizards of Middle Earth

[Sijy]

when Gandalf makes the fire on Caradhras, isn't he worried that he'll write his name for any one to see for mile on end?

He's clearly worried that another Maia might see him, whether Saruman, Sauron, or the Balrog of Moria I'm not sure, but I'd guess that he was worrying that Sauron might know where they are, and since they were trying to leave by stealth...even though Boromir sounded his horn, it would seem that Gandalf knew that Sauron knew that he was helping to take the ring someplace.

[jallan]

Upon descending from Caradhras the company was surrounded by a wolf pack, some of which they apparently slew, but all vanished at dawn, even the dead bodies, though the arrows with which they were short remained.

These phantom wolves are never explained and need not be.

But perhaps something did spot Gandalf's flame from afar, whether an agent of Sauron (the original wolf-lord) or of Saruman (who had wargs in his following).